Worship Mythbusters: Without a win defined, immaturity rules

Worship Mythbusters is a series of posts debunking myths about worship in the local church today. Join the discussion with fellow worship leaders, pastors and worshippers.  Are you ready for your thinking to be challenged?

Without question, the most visible, budgeted, debated and yet most poorly defined activity we engage in weekly is our weekend worship service. Yet, who can clarify whether or not a worship service was a “win” or not? And, who owns whether it was a win or not?

There are a lot of problems that arise when things are left fuzzy in leadership–especially so when everyone has an opinion about the matter. Without a purpose and definition, we all lose to bad behavior in our churches. After all, our passive-aggressive rejection of being pinned down on this topic from those of us who lead leave the people in our church to make up their own mind about it. We enable ignorance and pay the price later.

The “deliverables” a worship team are measured by are partly subjective. Music, an activity in most churches, is an art form. But, what makes it “good” or effective? How much production excellence can volunteers with little time and resources achieve? The church around the corner has the latest gear, why don’t we? Is a worship leader only a guy with a guitar, or can it be a woman on piano? Is our worship relevant or too worldly?

I would love to discuss with you the following statement. It is my observation that we enable immaturity and disunity when we do not equip our leaders and congregation to have understanding and definition in their expectation of corporate worship. Saying “we worship every day” is not enough. Why do we worship on the weekend? What is the purpose of our gathering and the defined win by having it?

Here is the statement posed for discussion:

When you deal with subjective deliverables without defining the win in leading people into worship a vacuum for immaturity grows.

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Rich Kirkpatrick

Rich Kirkpatrick

Writer, Speaker, and Musician. Rich Kirkpatrick was recently rated #13 of the “Top 75 Religion Bloggers” by Newsmax.com, having also received recognition by Worship Leader Magazine as “Editor’s Choice” for the “Best of the Best” of blogs in 2011, 2014, 2015 and 2016.

145 comments

  1. […] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Rich Kirkpatrick and tehillamusic.com, Karin . Karin said: Worship Mythbusters: Without a win defined, immaturity rules via Rich Kirkpatrick's Weblog – Worship … http://tinyurl.com/33y9a5k […]

  2. […] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Rich Kirkpatrick and tehillamusic.com, Karin . Karin said: Worship Mythbusters: Without a win defined, immaturity rules via Rich Kirkpatrick's Weblog – Worship … http://tinyurl.com/33y9a5k […]

  3. […] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Rich Kirkpatrick and tehillamusic.com, Karin . Karin said: Worship Mythbusters: Without a win defined, immaturity rules via Rich Kirkpatrick's Weblog – Worship … http://tinyurl.com/33y9a5k […]

  4. […] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Rich Kirkpatrick and tehillamusic.com, Karin . Karin said: Worship Mythbusters: Without a win defined, immaturity rules via Rich Kirkpatrick's Weblog – Worship … http://tinyurl.com/33y9a5k […]

  5. That question makes my brain hurt….I like to sing to Jesus. Is that enough?

    1. Craig,
      How about singing about Jesus? Why just to him?

      You see, you have a definition to begin with. When someone comes along and says I come to church to sing to Jesus, you can say “we have a win.”

      As you know, we all wish it was that simple and easy. NOT!

  6. That question makes my brain hurt….I like to sing to Jesus. Is that enough?

    1. Craig,
      How about singing about Jesus? Why just to him?
      You see, you have a definition to begin with. When someone comes along and says I come to church to sing to Jesus, you can say “we have a win.”
      As you know, we all wish it was that simple and easy. NOT!

  7. That question makes my brain hurt….I like to sing to Jesus. Is that enough?

    1. Craig,
      How about singing about Jesus? Why just to him?

      You see, you have a definition to begin with. When someone comes along and says I come to church to sing to Jesus, you can say “we have a win.”

      As you know, we all wish it was that simple and easy. NOT!

  8. That question makes my brain hurt….I like to sing to Jesus. Is that enough?

    1. Craig,
      How about singing about Jesus? Why just to him?

      You see, you have a definition to begin with. When someone comes along and says I come to church to sing to Jesus, you can say “we have a win.”

      As you know, we all wish it was that simple and easy. NOT!

  9. That question makes my brain hurt….I like to sing to Jesus. Is that enough?

    1. Craig,
      How about singing about Jesus? Why just to him?

      You see, you have a definition to begin with. When someone comes along and says I come to church to sing to Jesus, you can say “we have a win.”

      As you know, we all wish it was that simple and easy. NOT!

  10. Darn you Rich! No kidding, I almost typed “I just like to sing to Jesus and about Jesus”. My answer was part SMART ASS. I saw your post and did not have the time to process it all and give a thought out answer. So when I have some time I will come back and give a thorough response.

  11. Darn you Rich! No kidding, I almost typed “I just like to sing to Jesus and about Jesus”. My answer was part SMART ASS. I saw your post and did not have the time to process it all and give a thought out answer. So when I have some time I will come back and give a thorough response.

  12. Darn you Rich! No kidding, I almost typed “I just like to sing to Jesus and about Jesus”. My answer was part SMART ASS. I saw your post and did not have the time to process it all and give a thought out answer. So when I have some time I will come back and give a thorough response.

  13. Darn you Rich! No kidding, I almost typed “I just like to sing to Jesus and about Jesus”. My answer was part SMART ASS. I saw your post and did not have the time to process it all and give a thought out answer. So when I have some time I will come back and give a thorough response.

  14. Darn you Rich! No kidding, I almost typed “I just like to sing to Jesus and about Jesus”. My answer was part SMART ASS. I saw your post and did not have the time to process it all and give a thought out answer. So when I have some time I will come back and give a thorough response.

  15. Right on target, bro. Where there is no vision (leadership), the people will perish. Defining success is probably one of the first and most important duties for the leader. For a church, defining the win speaks to where they are going. What’s the point? What’s the target destination? Amazingly, there seems to be a lot of churches and pastors that have no idea where they are going. This all goes back to leadership.The strength of our church has hinged on the senior pastor, myself and the rest of the staff being on the same page with this. When we’re not, you can see it.
    For us, the win in worship, is walking into and away from a worship service knowing that we are being Spirit-led. Did we listen to God? Did we have love and compassion for the people who came? Did we give them truth & not opinions? Essentially, we base success on obedience more than tangible results, if that makes sense. Great thoughts. There’s got to be a win defined, for sure.

  16. Right on target, bro. Where there is no vision (leadership), the people will perish. Defining success is probably one of the first and most important duties for the leader. For a church, defining the win speaks to where they are going. What’s the point? What’s the target destination? Amazingly, there seems to be a lot of churches and pastors that have no idea where they are going. This all goes back to leadership.The strength of our church has hinged on the senior pastor, myself and the rest of the staff being on the same page with this. When we’re not, you can see it.
    For us, the win in worship, is walking into and away from a worship service knowing that we are being Spirit-led. Did we listen to God? Did we have love and compassion for the people who came? Did we give them truth & not opinions? Essentially, we base success on obedience more than tangible results, if that makes sense. Great thoughts. There’s got to be a win defined, for sure.

  17. Right on target, bro. Where there is no vision (leadership), the people will perish. Defining success is probably one of the first and most important duties for the leader. For a church, defining the win speaks to where they are going. What’s the point? What’s the target destination? Amazingly, there seems to be a lot of churches and pastors that have no idea where they are going. This all goes back to leadership.The strength of our church has hinged on the senior pastor, myself and the rest of the staff being on the same page with this. When we’re not, you can see it.
    For us, the win in worship, is walking into and away from a worship service knowing that we are being Spirit-led. Did we listen to God? Did we have love and compassion for the people who came? Did we give them truth & not opinions? Essentially, we base success on obedience more than tangible results, if that makes sense. Great thoughts. There’s got to be a win defined, for sure.

  18. Right on target, bro. Where there is no vision (leadership), the people will perish. Defining success is probably one of the first and most important duties for the leader. For a church, defining the win speaks to where they are going. What’s the point? What’s the target destination? Amazingly, there seems to be a lot of churches and pastors that have no idea where they are going. This all goes back to leadership.The strength of our church has hinged on the senior pastor, myself and the rest of the staff being on the same page with this. When we’re not, you can see it.
    For us, the win in worship, is walking into and away from a worship service knowing that we are being Spirit-led. Did we listen to God? Did we have love and compassion for the people who came? Did we give them truth & not opinions? Essentially, we base success on obedience more than tangible results, if that makes sense. Great thoughts. There’s got to be a win defined, for sure.

  19. Right on target, bro. Where there is no vision (leadership), the people will perish. Defining success is probably one of the first and most important duties for the leader. For a church, defining the win speaks to where they are going. What’s the point? What’s the target destination? Amazingly, there seems to be a lot of churches and pastors that have no idea where they are going. This all goes back to leadership.The strength of our church has hinged on the senior pastor, myself and the rest of the staff being on the same page with this. When we’re not, you can see it.
    For us, the win in worship, is walking into and away from a worship service knowing that we are being Spirit-led. Did we listen to God? Did we have love and compassion for the people who came? Did we give them truth & not opinions? Essentially, we base success on obedience more than tangible results, if that makes sense. Great thoughts. There’s got to be a win defined, for sure.

  20. Rich, great thoughts- I appreciate your post. I agree with Gary that one of the only tangible measures of a “successful” worship experience (for lack of a better term) is do our people walk away more obedient than they were before? 1 Samuel 15:22- “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice and to listen than the fat of rams.” Bless you Rich as you continue to engage us in these discussions that will hopefully refine us in our craft as worship leaders.

    1. John, that is the ultimate win–people “love” God more. It’s about the heart.
      Now, what does that look like for a particular weekend service?

  21. Rich, great thoughts- I appreciate your post. I agree with Gary that one of the only tangible measures of a “successful” worship experience (for lack of a better term) is do our people walk away more obedient than they were before? 1 Samuel 15:22- “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice and to listen than the fat of rams.” Bless you Rich as you continue to engage us in these discussions that will hopefully refine us in our craft as worship leaders.

    1. John, that is the ultimate win–people “love” God more. It’s about the heart.
      Now, what does that look like for a particular weekend service?

  22. Rich, great thoughts- I appreciate your post. I agree with Gary that one of the only tangible measures of a “successful” worship experience (for lack of a better term) is do our people walk away more obedient than they were before? 1 Samuel 15:22- “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice and to listen than the fat of rams.” Bless you Rich as you continue to engage us in these discussions that will hopefully refine us in our craft as worship leaders.

    1. John, that is the ultimate win–people “love” God more. It’s about the heart.
      Now, what does that look like for a particular weekend service?

  23. Rich, great thoughts- I appreciate your post. I agree with Gary that one of the only tangible measures of a “successful” worship experience (for lack of a better term) is do our people walk away more obedient than they were before? 1 Samuel 15:22- “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice and to listen than the fat of rams.” Bless you Rich as you continue to engage us in these discussions that will hopefully refine us in our craft as worship leaders.

    1. John, that is the ultimate win–people “love” God more. It’s about the heart.
      Now, what does that look like for a particular weekend service?

  24. Rich, great thoughts- I appreciate your post. I agree with Gary that one of the only tangible measures of a “successful” worship experience (for lack of a better term) is do our people walk away more obedient than they were before? 1 Samuel 15:22- “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice and to listen than the fat of rams.” Bless you Rich as you continue to engage us in these discussions that will hopefully refine us in our craft as worship leaders.

    1. John, that is the ultimate win–people “love” God more. It’s about the heart.
      Now, what does that look like for a particular weekend service?

  25. True worship is when all barriers are broken down, all distractions set aside, and the praise within your heart and soul overflows.Remember when Christ entered Jerusalem and proclaimed “….even the very rocks will cry out…”?
    In general terms, that is a “win”.

    When you as a worship team, brought the body to that ultimate place of standing in awe of God, realizing as much as humanly possible, his majesty, and without restraint, proclaim his goodness and grace directed towards us and are feebleness.

    How is this accomplished?
    There are three pillars all worship teams ‘should’ follow.
    ( 1 ) Have a heart directed towards God
    How phony is it to have leaders that are not God centered in their worship?
    Our motivation must be to make God the center point ourselves, or we worship in vain.
    Ask yourself, are you on stage because you always thought you could sing, and think it would be cool to have people see you on stage?
    Be honest and real about your personal commitment and motivation.
    2 corinthians 13:5 says “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!”
    Any act of worship that is done without faith is not true.
    ( 2 ) Play skillfully
    This is a commandment, not a suggestion, in Psalm 33.
    To place people in front of the congregation that are not skilled can only lead to distraction. Why would we raise up a pastor that wrongly divides the word because he is ill prepared?
    If anyone wishes to be on stage, singing, playing an instrument, LEARN IT! Study your craft. Doesn’t God deserve your best effort?
    ( 3 ) Be prepared
    Too many times I have seen musicians that fit the first two pillars come into a service un prepared.
    I have been guilty of this myself at times. This represents arrogance, and a lack of humility.
    If everyone showed up un prepared, how well do you think the body would be able to enter in?
    This also starts from the worship leader. There is nothing worse than begging for mp3’s and charts one or two days before the service from a lackadaisical worship leader, when you could have been preparing all week long.

    If these three criteria are meant, then hopefully, prayerfully, a “win” will be achieved.

    1. Keith, that is good stuff. I wonder however if actual “results” of how the congregation responds or if measuring that is important. In other words, you are not a leader if no one is behind you.
      All this to say, there is a win we can define for the profile of the worship leader, but there is a BIGGER win that the entire leadership and the people coming to church need to own.

      What that should look like and how we communicate that is important. We cannot just say, be prepared and godly–those should be for all people leading and serving, right?

      What “win” is there to the whole church body we can define that is specific to this one hour on a weekend? Is it seeing people come to faith? Is it more mature Christians as Gary says? Is it people participating at a greater level from our leadership?

      RK

      1. I think in the simplest of terms, we can just say “…be prepared and be Godly…”.The battle belongs to the Lord.
        Worship is “His” to receive or not.
        Like John said, “the victory belongs to the Lord.”
        I do believe, as I’ve seen with my own eyes, that when these things are carried out with Godliness and preparation, fruit is the ultimate result.
        People’s lives are changed. God is honored. Communities affected.
        I’ve also seen the stagnation of churches that did not take the responsibility of worship seriously. That is sad.
        Great blog Rich!

  26. True worship is when all barriers are broken down, all distractions set aside, and the praise within your heart and soul overflows.Remember when Christ entered Jerusalem and proclaimed “….even the very rocks will cry out…”?
    In general terms, that is a “win”.
    When you as a worship team, brought the body to that ultimate place of standing in awe of God, realizing as much as humanly possible, his majesty, and without restraint, proclaim his goodness and grace directed towards us and are feebleness.
    How is this accomplished?
    There are three pillars all worship teams ‘should’ follow.
    ( 1 ) Have a heart directed towards God
    How phony is it to have leaders that are not God centered in their worship?
    Our motivation must be to make God the center point ourselves, or we worship in vain.
    Ask yourself, are you on stage because you always thought you could sing, and think it would be cool to have people see you on stage?
    Be honest and real about your personal commitment and motivation.
    2 corinthians 13:5 says “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!”
    Any act of worship that is done without faith is not true.
    ( 2 ) Play skillfully
    This is a commandment, not a suggestion, in Psalm 33.
    To place people in front of the congregation that are not skilled can only lead to distraction. Why would we raise up a pastor that wrongly divides the word because he is ill prepared?
    If anyone wishes to be on stage, singing, playing an instrument, LEARN IT! Study your craft. Doesn’t God deserve your best effort?
    ( 3 ) Be prepared
    Too many times I have seen musicians that fit the first two pillars come into a service un prepared.
    I have been guilty of this myself at times. This represents arrogance, and a lack of humility.
    If everyone showed up un prepared, how well do you think the body would be able to enter in?
    This also starts from the worship leader. There is nothing worse than begging for mp3’s and charts one or two days before the service from a lackadaisical worship leader, when you could have been preparing all week long.
    If these three criteria are meant, then hopefully, prayerfully, a “win” will be achieved.

    1. Keith, that is good stuff. I wonder however if actual “results” of how the congregation responds or if measuring that is important. In other words, you are not a leader if no one is behind you.
      All this to say, there is a win we can define for the profile of the worship leader, but there is a BIGGER win that the entire leadership and the people coming to church need to own.
      What that should look like and how we communicate that is important. We cannot just say, be prepared and godly–those should be for all people leading and serving, right?
      What “win” is there to the whole church body we can define that is specific to this one hour on a weekend? Is it seeing people come to faith? Is it more mature Christians as Gary says? Is it people participating at a greater level from our leadership?
      RK

      1. I think in the simplest of terms, we can just say “…be prepared and be Godly…”.The battle belongs to the Lord.
        Worship is “His” to receive or not.
        Like John said, “the victory belongs to the Lord.”
        I do believe, as I’ve seen with my own eyes, that when these things are carried out with Godliness and preparation, fruit is the ultimate result.
        People’s lives are changed. God is honored. Communities affected.
        I’ve also seen the stagnation of churches that did not take the responsibility of worship seriously. That is sad.
        Great blog Rich!

  27. True worship is when all barriers are broken down, all distractions set aside, and the praise within your heart and soul overflows.Remember when Christ entered Jerusalem and proclaimed “….even the very rocks will cry out…”?
    In general terms, that is a “win”.

    When you as a worship team, brought the body to that ultimate place of standing in awe of God, realizing as much as humanly possible, his majesty, and without restraint, proclaim his goodness and grace directed towards us and are feebleness.

    How is this accomplished?
    There are three pillars all worship teams ‘should’ follow.
    ( 1 ) Have a heart directed towards God
    How phony is it to have leaders that are not God centered in their worship?
    Our motivation must be to make God the center point ourselves, or we worship in vain.
    Ask yourself, are you on stage because you always thought you could sing, and think it would be cool to have people see you on stage?
    Be honest and real about your personal commitment and motivation.
    2 corinthians 13:5 says “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!”
    Any act of worship that is done without faith is not true.
    ( 2 ) Play skillfully
    This is a commandment, not a suggestion, in Psalm 33.
    To place people in front of the congregation that are not skilled can only lead to distraction. Why would we raise up a pastor that wrongly divides the word because he is ill prepared?
    If anyone wishes to be on stage, singing, playing an instrument, LEARN IT! Study your craft. Doesn’t God deserve your best effort?
    ( 3 ) Be prepared
    Too many times I have seen musicians that fit the first two pillars come into a service un prepared.
    I have been guilty of this myself at times. This represents arrogance, and a lack of humility.
    If everyone showed up un prepared, how well do you think the body would be able to enter in?
    This also starts from the worship leader. There is nothing worse than begging for mp3’s and charts one or two days before the service from a lackadaisical worship leader, when you could have been preparing all week long.

    If these three criteria are meant, then hopefully, prayerfully, a “win” will be achieved.

    1. Keith, that is good stuff. I wonder however if actual “results” of how the congregation responds or if measuring that is important. In other words, you are not a leader if no one is behind you.
      All this to say, there is a win we can define for the profile of the worship leader, but there is a BIGGER win that the entire leadership and the people coming to church need to own.

      What that should look like and how we communicate that is important. We cannot just say, be prepared and godly–those should be for all people leading and serving, right?

      What “win” is there to the whole church body we can define that is specific to this one hour on a weekend? Is it seeing people come to faith? Is it more mature Christians as Gary says? Is it people participating at a greater level from our leadership?

      RK

      1. I think in the simplest of terms, we can just say “…be prepared and be Godly…”.The battle belongs to the Lord.
        Worship is “His” to receive or not.
        Like John said, “the victory belongs to the Lord.”
        I do believe, as I’ve seen with my own eyes, that when these things are carried out with Godliness and preparation, fruit is the ultimate result.
        People’s lives are changed. God is honored. Communities affected.
        I’ve also seen the stagnation of churches that did not take the responsibility of worship seriously. That is sad.
        Great blog Rich!

  28. True worship is when all barriers are broken down, all distractions set aside, and the praise within your heart and soul overflows.Remember when Christ entered Jerusalem and proclaimed “….even the very rocks will cry out…”?
    In general terms, that is a “win”.

    When you as a worship team, brought the body to that ultimate place of standing in awe of God, realizing as much as humanly possible, his majesty, and without restraint, proclaim his goodness and grace directed towards us and are feebleness.

    How is this accomplished?
    There are three pillars all worship teams ‘should’ follow.
    ( 1 ) Have a heart directed towards God
    How phony is it to have leaders that are not God centered in their worship?
    Our motivation must be to make God the center point ourselves, or we worship in vain.
    Ask yourself, are you on stage because you always thought you could sing, and think it would be cool to have people see you on stage?
    Be honest and real about your personal commitment and motivation.
    2 corinthians 13:5 says “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!”
    Any act of worship that is done without faith is not true.
    ( 2 ) Play skillfully
    This is a commandment, not a suggestion, in Psalm 33.
    To place people in front of the congregation that are not skilled can only lead to distraction. Why would we raise up a pastor that wrongly divides the word because he is ill prepared?
    If anyone wishes to be on stage, singing, playing an instrument, LEARN IT! Study your craft. Doesn’t God deserve your best effort?
    ( 3 ) Be prepared
    Too many times I have seen musicians that fit the first two pillars come into a service un prepared.
    I have been guilty of this myself at times. This represents arrogance, and a lack of humility.
    If everyone showed up un prepared, how well do you think the body would be able to enter in?
    This also starts from the worship leader. There is nothing worse than begging for mp3’s and charts one or two days before the service from a lackadaisical worship leader, when you could have been preparing all week long.

    If these three criteria are meant, then hopefully, prayerfully, a “win” will be achieved.

    1. Keith, that is good stuff. I wonder however if actual “results” of how the congregation responds or if measuring that is important. In other words, you are not a leader if no one is behind you.
      All this to say, there is a win we can define for the profile of the worship leader, but there is a BIGGER win that the entire leadership and the people coming to church need to own.

      What that should look like and how we communicate that is important. We cannot just say, be prepared and godly–those should be for all people leading and serving, right?

      What “win” is there to the whole church body we can define that is specific to this one hour on a weekend? Is it seeing people come to faith? Is it more mature Christians as Gary says? Is it people participating at a greater level from our leadership?

      RK

      1. I think in the simplest of terms, we can just say “…be prepared and be Godly…”.The battle belongs to the Lord.
        Worship is “His” to receive or not.
        Like John said, “the victory belongs to the Lord.”
        I do believe, as I’ve seen with my own eyes, that when these things are carried out with Godliness and preparation, fruit is the ultimate result.
        People’s lives are changed. God is honored. Communities affected.
        I’ve also seen the stagnation of churches that did not take the responsibility of worship seriously. That is sad.
        Great blog Rich!

  29. True worship is when all barriers are broken down, all distractions set aside, and the praise within your heart and soul overflows.Remember when Christ entered Jerusalem and proclaimed “….even the very rocks will cry out…”?
    In general terms, that is a “win”.

    When you as a worship team, brought the body to that ultimate place of standing in awe of God, realizing as much as humanly possible, his majesty, and without restraint, proclaim his goodness and grace directed towards us and are feebleness.

    How is this accomplished?
    There are three pillars all worship teams ‘should’ follow.
    ( 1 ) Have a heart directed towards God
    How phony is it to have leaders that are not God centered in their worship?
    Our motivation must be to make God the center point ourselves, or we worship in vain.
    Ask yourself, are you on stage because you always thought you could sing, and think it would be cool to have people see you on stage?
    Be honest and real about your personal commitment and motivation.
    2 corinthians 13:5 says “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!”
    Any act of worship that is done without faith is not true.
    ( 2 ) Play skillfully
    This is a commandment, not a suggestion, in Psalm 33.
    To place people in front of the congregation that are not skilled can only lead to distraction. Why would we raise up a pastor that wrongly divides the word because he is ill prepared?
    If anyone wishes to be on stage, singing, playing an instrument, LEARN IT! Study your craft. Doesn’t God deserve your best effort?
    ( 3 ) Be prepared
    Too many times I have seen musicians that fit the first two pillars come into a service un prepared.
    I have been guilty of this myself at times. This represents arrogance, and a lack of humility.
    If everyone showed up un prepared, how well do you think the body would be able to enter in?
    This also starts from the worship leader. There is nothing worse than begging for mp3’s and charts one or two days before the service from a lackadaisical worship leader, when you could have been preparing all week long.

    If these three criteria are meant, then hopefully, prayerfully, a “win” will be achieved.

    1. Keith, that is good stuff. I wonder however if actual “results” of how the congregation responds or if measuring that is important. In other words, you are not a leader if no one is behind you.
      All this to say, there is a win we can define for the profile of the worship leader, but there is a BIGGER win that the entire leadership and the people coming to church need to own.

      What that should look like and how we communicate that is important. We cannot just say, be prepared and godly–those should be for all people leading and serving, right?

      What “win” is there to the whole church body we can define that is specific to this one hour on a weekend? Is it seeing people come to faith? Is it more mature Christians as Gary says? Is it people participating at a greater level from our leadership?

      RK

      1. I think in the simplest of terms, we can just say “…be prepared and be Godly…”.The battle belongs to the Lord.
        Worship is “His” to receive or not.
        Like John said, “the victory belongs to the Lord.”
        I do believe, as I’ve seen with my own eyes, that when these things are carried out with Godliness and preparation, fruit is the ultimate result.
        People’s lives are changed. God is honored. Communities affected.
        I’ve also seen the stagnation of churches that did not take the responsibility of worship seriously. That is sad.
        Great blog Rich!

  30. Rich, I agree with Keith in terms of what this should look like on Sunday. My pastor and I talked about this the other day- the fact that we need to be as excellent and prepared as we can be. Proverbs 21:31-“The horse is made ready for the day of battle, but the victory belongs to the Lord.” There is an element of needing to do everything we can to prepare ourselves, but the Lord brings about victory and receives all the glory. This goes for everyone on a given Sunday- is the music team as prepared as it possibly can be? Is the pastor? Are the people??? When we are prepared for worship in every way, the Lord is the one that brings about the “win.”

    1. Amen John.

  31. Rich, I agree with Keith in terms of what this should look like on Sunday. My pastor and I talked about this the other day- the fact that we need to be as excellent and prepared as we can be. Proverbs 21:31-“The horse is made ready for the day of battle, but the victory belongs to the Lord.” There is an element of needing to do everything we can to prepare ourselves, but the Lord brings about victory and receives all the glory. This goes for everyone on a given Sunday- is the music team as prepared as it possibly can be? Is the pastor? Are the people??? When we are prepared for worship in every way, the Lord is the one that brings about the “win.”

    1. Amen John.

  32. Rich, I agree with Keith in terms of what this should look like on Sunday. My pastor and I talked about this the other day- the fact that we need to be as excellent and prepared as we can be. Proverbs 21:31-“The horse is made ready for the day of battle, but the victory belongs to the Lord.” There is an element of needing to do everything we can to prepare ourselves, but the Lord brings about victory and receives all the glory. This goes for everyone on a given Sunday- is the music team as prepared as it possibly can be? Is the pastor? Are the people??? When we are prepared for worship in every way, the Lord is the one that brings about the “win.”

    1. Amen John.

  33. Rich, I agree with Keith in terms of what this should look like on Sunday. My pastor and I talked about this the other day- the fact that we need to be as excellent and prepared as we can be. Proverbs 21:31-“The horse is made ready for the day of battle, but the victory belongs to the Lord.” There is an element of needing to do everything we can to prepare ourselves, but the Lord brings about victory and receives all the glory. This goes for everyone on a given Sunday- is the music team as prepared as it possibly can be? Is the pastor? Are the people??? When we are prepared for worship in every way, the Lord is the one that brings about the “win.”

    1. Amen John.

  34. Rich, I agree with Keith in terms of what this should look like on Sunday. My pastor and I talked about this the other day- the fact that we need to be as excellent and prepared as we can be. Proverbs 21:31-“The horse is made ready for the day of battle, but the victory belongs to the Lord.” There is an element of needing to do everything we can to prepare ourselves, but the Lord brings about victory and receives all the glory. This goes for everyone on a given Sunday- is the music team as prepared as it possibly can be? Is the pastor? Are the people??? When we are prepared for worship in every way, the Lord is the one that brings about the “win.”

    1. Amen John.

  35. My bottom line for this discussion, which I’ve many times with leadership at my church and others, is this: At the end of the day, was the Lord worshipped? If I can walk away from the corporate gathering with a “yes” in my heart, I did my job.
    As has already been mentioned, the results for anyone else in the meeting is up to the Lord, not me. A saying I’ve heard quoted often (not sure of the source or I would cite it) regarding prayer for healing: If I don’t take any of the credit when they are healed, I don’t have to take any of the blame when they’re not; just be faithful to do it.

    Pray, plan, prepare, then give it to the Lord.

    Blessings!

    1. Hi Dudley…thanks for your thoughts here.
      I know we are not going to take “credit” however, if a teacher teaches and no one learns is it partly the teachers fault? If we lead people in worship, is there not a result we are responsible for as far as how our gifts should visibly grow people? Just a question.

      Thanks!

  36. My bottom line for this discussion, which I’ve many times with leadership at my church and others, is this: At the end of the day, was the Lord worshipped? If I can walk away from the corporate gathering with a “yes” in my heart, I did my job.
    As has already been mentioned, the results for anyone else in the meeting is up to the Lord, not me. A saying I’ve heard quoted often (not sure of the source or I would cite it) regarding prayer for healing: If I don’t take any of the credit when they are healed, I don’t have to take any of the blame when they’re not; just be faithful to do it.
    Pray, plan, prepare, then give it to the Lord.
    Blessings!

    1. Hi Dudley…thanks for your thoughts here.
      I know we are not going to take “credit” however, if a teacher teaches and no one learns is it partly the teachers fault? If we lead people in worship, is there not a result we are responsible for as far as how our gifts should visibly grow people? Just a question.
      Thanks!

  37. My bottom line for this discussion, which I’ve many times with leadership at my church and others, is this: At the end of the day, was the Lord worshipped? If I can walk away from the corporate gathering with a “yes” in my heart, I did my job.
    As has already been mentioned, the results for anyone else in the meeting is up to the Lord, not me. A saying I’ve heard quoted often (not sure of the source or I would cite it) regarding prayer for healing: If I don’t take any of the credit when they are healed, I don’t have to take any of the blame when they’re not; just be faithful to do it.

    Pray, plan, prepare, then give it to the Lord.

    Blessings!

    1. Hi Dudley…thanks for your thoughts here.
      I know we are not going to take “credit” however, if a teacher teaches and no one learns is it partly the teachers fault? If we lead people in worship, is there not a result we are responsible for as far as how our gifts should visibly grow people? Just a question.

      Thanks!

  38. My bottom line for this discussion, which I’ve many times with leadership at my church and others, is this: At the end of the day, was the Lord worshipped? If I can walk away from the corporate gathering with a “yes” in my heart, I did my job.
    As has already been mentioned, the results for anyone else in the meeting is up to the Lord, not me. A saying I’ve heard quoted often (not sure of the source or I would cite it) regarding prayer for healing: If I don’t take any of the credit when they are healed, I don’t have to take any of the blame when they’re not; just be faithful to do it.

    Pray, plan, prepare, then give it to the Lord.

    Blessings!

    1. Hi Dudley…thanks for your thoughts here.
      I know we are not going to take “credit” however, if a teacher teaches and no one learns is it partly the teachers fault? If we lead people in worship, is there not a result we are responsible for as far as how our gifts should visibly grow people? Just a question.

      Thanks!

  39. My bottom line for this discussion, which I’ve many times with leadership at my church and others, is this: At the end of the day, was the Lord worshipped? If I can walk away from the corporate gathering with a “yes” in my heart, I did my job.
    As has already been mentioned, the results for anyone else in the meeting is up to the Lord, not me. A saying I’ve heard quoted often (not sure of the source or I would cite it) regarding prayer for healing: If I don’t take any of the credit when they are healed, I don’t have to take any of the blame when they’re not; just be faithful to do it.

    Pray, plan, prepare, then give it to the Lord.

    Blessings!

    1. Hi Dudley…thanks for your thoughts here.
      I know we are not going to take “credit” however, if a teacher teaches and no one learns is it partly the teachers fault? If we lead people in worship, is there not a result we are responsible for as far as how our gifts should visibly grow people? Just a question.

      Thanks!

  40. I love this discussion 🙂 I definitely do not have a solid answer but am more thinking with all you out loud. I confess that I am more excited and energized in worship leading when the congregation with singing and participating with me and get discouraged when I feel as though I am performing because the voices are as loud. But who’s to say that people are worshipping in silence eh? haha.
    I do think that often times I have minimized the importance of prayer and the work of the HOly Spirit in our worship services. Ultimately, our jobs are a mute point without him moving and piercing peoples hearts. He is God. And it’s important for the team and people put that at the forefront of our minds.

    As for defining a win, right now I think my answer would be, if people are singing and actively participating in worship, then that’s win. We don’t know their hearts of course, but I think the responsibility lies on the worship leader to GUIDE their congregation in worship through song. Bringing to light passages like eph 4-5:20, teaching them the unity we all have in Christ and that a way to encourage one another in the unity is through music. Through song. Through hearing the voices of your brothers and sisters who are going through trials still singing praise to God because we all have confidence in who He is and what He has done for us. And if we don’t have that confidence, well surely when we look across the room and see Mr and Mrs So and So who we know are going through hell and back still raising their voices to God, how can we not be encouraged?

    Moral of the story: WL’s need to coach their congregations in the purpose of corporate singing in order to fight off immaturity and promote unity.

    🙂

    1. Julianna…BRILLIANT response in my opinion.
      “As for defining a win, right now I think my answer would be, if people are singing and actively participating in worship, then that’s win. “

      That is a great place to start.

  41. I love this discussion 🙂 I definitely do not have a solid answer but am more thinking with all you out loud. I confess that I am more excited and energized in worship leading when the congregation with singing and participating with me and get discouraged when I feel as though I am performing because the voices are as loud. But who’s to say that people are worshipping in silence eh? haha.
    I do think that often times I have minimized the importance of prayer and the work of the HOly Spirit in our worship services. Ultimately, our jobs are a mute point without him moving and piercing peoples hearts. He is God. And it’s important for the team and people put that at the forefront of our minds.
    As for defining a win, right now I think my answer would be, if people are singing and actively participating in worship, then that’s win. We don’t know their hearts of course, but I think the responsibility lies on the worship leader to GUIDE their congregation in worship through song. Bringing to light passages like eph 4-5:20, teaching them the unity we all have in Christ and that a way to encourage one another in the unity is through music. Through song. Through hearing the voices of your brothers and sisters who are going through trials still singing praise to God because we all have confidence in who He is and what He has done for us. And if we don’t have that confidence, well surely when we look across the room and see Mr and Mrs So and So who we know are going through hell and back still raising their voices to God, how can we not be encouraged?
    Moral of the story: WL’s need to coach their congregations in the purpose of corporate singing in order to fight off immaturity and promote unity.
    🙂

    1. Julianna…BRILLIANT response in my opinion.
      “As for defining a win, right now I think my answer would be, if people are singing and actively participating in worship, then that’s win. ”
      That is a great place to start.

  42. I love this discussion 🙂 I definitely do not have a solid answer but am more thinking with all you out loud. I confess that I am more excited and energized in worship leading when the congregation with singing and participating with me and get discouraged when I feel as though I am performing because the voices are as loud. But who’s to say that people are worshipping in silence eh? haha.
    I do think that often times I have minimized the importance of prayer and the work of the HOly Spirit in our worship services. Ultimately, our jobs are a mute point without him moving and piercing peoples hearts. He is God. And it’s important for the team and people put that at the forefront of our minds.

    As for defining a win, right now I think my answer would be, if people are singing and actively participating in worship, then that’s win. We don’t know their hearts of course, but I think the responsibility lies on the worship leader to GUIDE their congregation in worship through song. Bringing to light passages like eph 4-5:20, teaching them the unity we all have in Christ and that a way to encourage one another in the unity is through music. Through song. Through hearing the voices of your brothers and sisters who are going through trials still singing praise to God because we all have confidence in who He is and what He has done for us. And if we don’t have that confidence, well surely when we look across the room and see Mr and Mrs So and So who we know are going through hell and back still raising their voices to God, how can we not be encouraged?

    Moral of the story: WL’s need to coach their congregations in the purpose of corporate singing in order to fight off immaturity and promote unity.

    🙂

    1. Julianna…BRILLIANT response in my opinion.
      “As for defining a win, right now I think my answer would be, if people are singing and actively participating in worship, then that’s win. “

      That is a great place to start.

  43. I love this discussion 🙂 I definitely do not have a solid answer but am more thinking with all you out loud. I confess that I am more excited and energized in worship leading when the congregation with singing and participating with me and get discouraged when I feel as though I am performing because the voices are as loud. But who’s to say that people are worshipping in silence eh? haha.
    I do think that often times I have minimized the importance of prayer and the work of the HOly Spirit in our worship services. Ultimately, our jobs are a mute point without him moving and piercing peoples hearts. He is God. And it’s important for the team and people put that at the forefront of our minds.

    As for defining a win, right now I think my answer would be, if people are singing and actively participating in worship, then that’s win. We don’t know their hearts of course, but I think the responsibility lies on the worship leader to GUIDE their congregation in worship through song. Bringing to light passages like eph 4-5:20, teaching them the unity we all have in Christ and that a way to encourage one another in the unity is through music. Through song. Through hearing the voices of your brothers and sisters who are going through trials still singing praise to God because we all have confidence in who He is and what He has done for us. And if we don’t have that confidence, well surely when we look across the room and see Mr and Mrs So and So who we know are going through hell and back still raising their voices to God, how can we not be encouraged?

    Moral of the story: WL’s need to coach their congregations in the purpose of corporate singing in order to fight off immaturity and promote unity.

    🙂

    1. Julianna…BRILLIANT response in my opinion.
      “As for defining a win, right now I think my answer would be, if people are singing and actively participating in worship, then that’s win. “

      That is a great place to start.

  44. I love this discussion 🙂 I definitely do not have a solid answer but am more thinking with all you out loud. I confess that I am more excited and energized in worship leading when the congregation with singing and participating with me and get discouraged when I feel as though I am performing because the voices are as loud. But who’s to say that people are worshipping in silence eh? haha.
    I do think that often times I have minimized the importance of prayer and the work of the HOly Spirit in our worship services. Ultimately, our jobs are a mute point without him moving and piercing peoples hearts. He is God. And it’s important for the team and people put that at the forefront of our minds.

    As for defining a win, right now I think my answer would be, if people are singing and actively participating in worship, then that’s win. We don’t know their hearts of course, but I think the responsibility lies on the worship leader to GUIDE their congregation in worship through song. Bringing to light passages like eph 4-5:20, teaching them the unity we all have in Christ and that a way to encourage one another in the unity is through music. Through song. Through hearing the voices of your brothers and sisters who are going through trials still singing praise to God because we all have confidence in who He is and what He has done for us. And if we don’t have that confidence, well surely when we look across the room and see Mr and Mrs So and So who we know are going through hell and back still raising their voices to God, how can we not be encouraged?

    Moral of the story: WL’s need to coach their congregations in the purpose of corporate singing in order to fight off immaturity and promote unity.

    🙂

    1. Julianna…BRILLIANT response in my opinion.
      “As for defining a win, right now I think my answer would be, if people are singing and actively participating in worship, then that’s win. “

      That is a great place to start.

  45. first paragraph, “voices AREN’T as loud.” my bad.

  46. Your statement is spot on. I’m actually dealing with this right now in my current ministry situation. It is not pleasant as our “discussion” about corporate worship is based more on preferences and “what I like” than on what is biblical, Body-building, Christ-honoring, and engaging across the board.
    For me, a win is to know that because of the time spent together as the Body of Christ, we worshiped together and then left a little (or a lot) more transformed into the image of Christ because of the time spent together in HIs presence. That’s seen in people being more Christ-like and the fruit of the Spirit being more evident in their homes, workplaces, and attitudes.

    Yes, I know that is both subjective and objective. I don’t know how to measure that other than over the long haul in seeing spiritual growth and depth. In people becoming more mature. One thing to me is that it might not be possible or appropriate to measure individual weeks, but to look at the big picture.

    Ultimately, it’s about being faithful in leading people as God directs, trusting Him to draw us to Himself, and praying that there is response to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

    Thanks for initiating and asking the questions. I appreciate it.

    1. Hi Chris,
      “I don’t know how to measure that other than over the long haul in seeing spiritual growth and depth. In people becoming more mature. “

      Indeed.

      I do think, however, we need to measure something each week or season. Our end game is biblical maturity. But, is there a strategy to get people to participate and engage in order to get there? And, like you asked, is there a way to measure?

  47. Your statement is spot on. I’m actually dealing with this right now in my current ministry situation. It is not pleasant as our “discussion” about corporate worship is based more on preferences and “what I like” than on what is biblical, Body-building, Christ-honoring, and engaging across the board.
    For me, a win is to know that because of the time spent together as the Body of Christ, we worshiped together and then left a little (or a lot) more transformed into the image of Christ because of the time spent together in HIs presence. That’s seen in people being more Christ-like and the fruit of the Spirit being more evident in their homes, workplaces, and attitudes.
    Yes, I know that is both subjective and objective. I don’t know how to measure that other than over the long haul in seeing spiritual growth and depth. In people becoming more mature. One thing to me is that it might not be possible or appropriate to measure individual weeks, but to look at the big picture.
    Ultimately, it’s about being faithful in leading people as God directs, trusting Him to draw us to Himself, and praying that there is response to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
    Thanks for initiating and asking the questions. I appreciate it.

    1. Hi Chris,
      “I don’t know how to measure that other than over the long haul in seeing spiritual growth and depth. In people becoming more mature. ”
      Indeed.
      I do think, however, we need to measure something each week or season. Our end game is biblical maturity. But, is there a strategy to get people to participate and engage in order to get there? And, like you asked, is there a way to measure?

  48. Your statement is spot on. I’m actually dealing with this right now in my current ministry situation. It is not pleasant as our “discussion” about corporate worship is based more on preferences and “what I like” than on what is biblical, Body-building, Christ-honoring, and engaging across the board.
    For me, a win is to know that because of the time spent together as the Body of Christ, we worshiped together and then left a little (or a lot) more transformed into the image of Christ because of the time spent together in HIs presence. That’s seen in people being more Christ-like and the fruit of the Spirit being more evident in their homes, workplaces, and attitudes.

    Yes, I know that is both subjective and objective. I don’t know how to measure that other than over the long haul in seeing spiritual growth and depth. In people becoming more mature. One thing to me is that it might not be possible or appropriate to measure individual weeks, but to look at the big picture.

    Ultimately, it’s about being faithful in leading people as God directs, trusting Him to draw us to Himself, and praying that there is response to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

    Thanks for initiating and asking the questions. I appreciate it.

    1. Hi Chris,
      “I don’t know how to measure that other than over the long haul in seeing spiritual growth and depth. In people becoming more mature. “

      Indeed.

      I do think, however, we need to measure something each week or season. Our end game is biblical maturity. But, is there a strategy to get people to participate and engage in order to get there? And, like you asked, is there a way to measure?

  49. Your statement is spot on. I’m actually dealing with this right now in my current ministry situation. It is not pleasant as our “discussion” about corporate worship is based more on preferences and “what I like” than on what is biblical, Body-building, Christ-honoring, and engaging across the board.
    For me, a win is to know that because of the time spent together as the Body of Christ, we worshiped together and then left a little (or a lot) more transformed into the image of Christ because of the time spent together in HIs presence. That’s seen in people being more Christ-like and the fruit of the Spirit being more evident in their homes, workplaces, and attitudes.

    Yes, I know that is both subjective and objective. I don’t know how to measure that other than over the long haul in seeing spiritual growth and depth. In people becoming more mature. One thing to me is that it might not be possible or appropriate to measure individual weeks, but to look at the big picture.

    Ultimately, it’s about being faithful in leading people as God directs, trusting Him to draw us to Himself, and praying that there is response to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

    Thanks for initiating and asking the questions. I appreciate it.

    1. Hi Chris,
      “I don’t know how to measure that other than over the long haul in seeing spiritual growth and depth. In people becoming more mature. “

      Indeed.

      I do think, however, we need to measure something each week or season. Our end game is biblical maturity. But, is there a strategy to get people to participate and engage in order to get there? And, like you asked, is there a way to measure?

  50. Your statement is spot on. I’m actually dealing with this right now in my current ministry situation. It is not pleasant as our “discussion” about corporate worship is based more on preferences and “what I like” than on what is biblical, Body-building, Christ-honoring, and engaging across the board.
    For me, a win is to know that because of the time spent together as the Body of Christ, we worshiped together and then left a little (or a lot) more transformed into the image of Christ because of the time spent together in HIs presence. That’s seen in people being more Christ-like and the fruit of the Spirit being more evident in their homes, workplaces, and attitudes.

    Yes, I know that is both subjective and objective. I don’t know how to measure that other than over the long haul in seeing spiritual growth and depth. In people becoming more mature. One thing to me is that it might not be possible or appropriate to measure individual weeks, but to look at the big picture.

    Ultimately, it’s about being faithful in leading people as God directs, trusting Him to draw us to Himself, and praying that there is response to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

    Thanks for initiating and asking the questions. I appreciate it.

    1. Hi Chris,
      “I don’t know how to measure that other than over the long haul in seeing spiritual growth and depth. In people becoming more mature. “

      Indeed.

      I do think, however, we need to measure something each week or season. Our end game is biblical maturity. But, is there a strategy to get people to participate and engage in order to get there? And, like you asked, is there a way to measure?

  51. I’d like to pose a different perspective…. Does being so focused on preparing musically or how excellent in skill we perform create a community based on achievement or ability instead of obedience?
    My background is one of decent skill and an overflowing heart to worship my king. I’ve been forgiven much, so I am desperate to let others taste the goodness of my king.

    My measurement is not in how great the song is played or whether everyone practiced nearly as much as who gets the glory. If my King is clearly worshiped on his Throne and his love, grace, peace, encouragement, correction, etc… are resonating in people’s hearts… that is what I see as win.

    I can put the greatest band together in the world. They can hit every note and be perfect. People can even be emotionally moved by the greatness of the sound. That doesn’t mean that the right thing was glorified.

    I will take a less talented band member who has a humble heart for Jesus and is authentically worshiping Jesus over one who is extremely talented and views/holds up everyone through their gifting. I’ve learned along the way that we tend to expect everyone to see ministry, serving, playing worshiping through our own expectations and abilities instead of finding ways to equip and encourage those around us to strengthen the gifts that God has given them. Don’t get me wrong. I think that we should seek to minimize distractions. But not to the point that we demand perfection and create a fear of failure or lack of freedom to worship. The healthy balance is creating a community that naturally wants to practice and play well, but isn’t so micro-managed that they lose all desire to participate.

    My point is that I see way too many stories of the ordinary being able to communicate the extraordinary greatness of God because they are humble, obedient and willing. They seek to serve God.

    When you talk about wins. It starts with clearly defining who we worship, why we worship, how we worship. If your church doesn’t have a clear view of Jesus and biblical worship, wins aren’t even worth talking about.

    The reality is, we spend a lot of time talking about what form or style we are going to present instead of drawing near to Jesus and seeking his change in our lives/hearts.

  52. I’d like to pose a different perspective…. Does being so focused on preparing musically or how excellent in skill we perform create a community based on achievement or ability instead of obedience?
    My background is one of decent skill and an overflowing heart to worship my king. I’ve been forgiven much, so I am desperate to let others taste the goodness of my king.
    My measurement is not in how great the song is played or whether everyone practiced nearly as much as who gets the glory. If my King is clearly worshiped on his Throne and his love, grace, peace, encouragement, correction, etc… are resonating in people’s hearts… that is what I see as win.
    I can put the greatest band together in the world. They can hit every note and be perfect. People can even be emotionally moved by the greatness of the sound. That doesn’t mean that the right thing was glorified.
    I will take a less talented band member who has a humble heart for Jesus and is authentically worshiping Jesus over one who is extremely talented and views/holds up everyone through their gifting. I’ve learned along the way that we tend to expect everyone to see ministry, serving, playing worshiping through our own expectations and abilities instead of finding ways to equip and encourage those around us to strengthen the gifts that God has given them. Don’t get me wrong. I think that we should seek to minimize distractions. But not to the point that we demand perfection and create a fear of failure or lack of freedom to worship. The healthy balance is creating a community that naturally wants to practice and play well, but isn’t so micro-managed that they lose all desire to participate.
    My point is that I see way too many stories of the ordinary being able to communicate the extraordinary greatness of God because they are humble, obedient and willing. They seek to serve God.
    When you talk about wins. It starts with clearly defining who we worship, why we worship, how we worship. If your church doesn’t have a clear view of Jesus and biblical worship, wins aren’t even worth talking about.
    The reality is, we spend a lot of time talking about what form or style we are going to present instead of drawing near to Jesus and seeking his change in our lives/hearts.

  53. I’d like to pose a different perspective…. Does being so focused on preparing musically or how excellent in skill we perform create a community based on achievement or ability instead of obedience?
    My background is one of decent skill and an overflowing heart to worship my king. I’ve been forgiven much, so I am desperate to let others taste the goodness of my king.

    My measurement is not in how great the song is played or whether everyone practiced nearly as much as who gets the glory. If my King is clearly worshiped on his Throne and his love, grace, peace, encouragement, correction, etc… are resonating in people’s hearts… that is what I see as win.

    I can put the greatest band together in the world. They can hit every note and be perfect. People can even be emotionally moved by the greatness of the sound. That doesn’t mean that the right thing was glorified.

    I will take a less talented band member who has a humble heart for Jesus and is authentically worshiping Jesus over one who is extremely talented and views/holds up everyone through their gifting. I’ve learned along the way that we tend to expect everyone to see ministry, serving, playing worshiping through our own expectations and abilities instead of finding ways to equip and encourage those around us to strengthen the gifts that God has given them. Don’t get me wrong. I think that we should seek to minimize distractions. But not to the point that we demand perfection and create a fear of failure or lack of freedom to worship. The healthy balance is creating a community that naturally wants to practice and play well, but isn’t so micro-managed that they lose all desire to participate.

    My point is that I see way too many stories of the ordinary being able to communicate the extraordinary greatness of God because they are humble, obedient and willing. They seek to serve God.

    When you talk about wins. It starts with clearly defining who we worship, why we worship, how we worship. If your church doesn’t have a clear view of Jesus and biblical worship, wins aren’t even worth talking about.

    The reality is, we spend a lot of time talking about what form or style we are going to present instead of drawing near to Jesus and seeking his change in our lives/hearts.

  54. I’d like to pose a different perspective…. Does being so focused on preparing musically or how excellent in skill we perform create a community based on achievement or ability instead of obedience?
    My background is one of decent skill and an overflowing heart to worship my king. I’ve been forgiven much, so I am desperate to let others taste the goodness of my king.

    My measurement is not in how great the song is played or whether everyone practiced nearly as much as who gets the glory. If my King is clearly worshiped on his Throne and his love, grace, peace, encouragement, correction, etc… are resonating in people’s hearts… that is what I see as win.

    I can put the greatest band together in the world. They can hit every note and be perfect. People can even be emotionally moved by the greatness of the sound. That doesn’t mean that the right thing was glorified.

    I will take a less talented band member who has a humble heart for Jesus and is authentically worshiping Jesus over one who is extremely talented and views/holds up everyone through their gifting. I’ve learned along the way that we tend to expect everyone to see ministry, serving, playing worshiping through our own expectations and abilities instead of finding ways to equip and encourage those around us to strengthen the gifts that God has given them. Don’t get me wrong. I think that we should seek to minimize distractions. But not to the point that we demand perfection and create a fear of failure or lack of freedom to worship. The healthy balance is creating a community that naturally wants to practice and play well, but isn’t so micro-managed that they lose all desire to participate.

    My point is that I see way too many stories of the ordinary being able to communicate the extraordinary greatness of God because they are humble, obedient and willing. They seek to serve God.

    When you talk about wins. It starts with clearly defining who we worship, why we worship, how we worship. If your church doesn’t have a clear view of Jesus and biblical worship, wins aren’t even worth talking about.

    The reality is, we spend a lot of time talking about what form or style we are going to present instead of drawing near to Jesus and seeking his change in our lives/hearts.

  55. I’d like to pose a different perspective…. Does being so focused on preparing musically or how excellent in skill we perform create a community based on achievement or ability instead of obedience?
    My background is one of decent skill and an overflowing heart to worship my king. I’ve been forgiven much, so I am desperate to let others taste the goodness of my king.

    My measurement is not in how great the song is played or whether everyone practiced nearly as much as who gets the glory. If my King is clearly worshiped on his Throne and his love, grace, peace, encouragement, correction, etc… are resonating in people’s hearts… that is what I see as win.

    I can put the greatest band together in the world. They can hit every note and be perfect. People can even be emotionally moved by the greatness of the sound. That doesn’t mean that the right thing was glorified.

    I will take a less talented band member who has a humble heart for Jesus and is authentically worshiping Jesus over one who is extremely talented and views/holds up everyone through their gifting. I’ve learned along the way that we tend to expect everyone to see ministry, serving, playing worshiping through our own expectations and abilities instead of finding ways to equip and encourage those around us to strengthen the gifts that God has given them. Don’t get me wrong. I think that we should seek to minimize distractions. But not to the point that we demand perfection and create a fear of failure or lack of freedom to worship. The healthy balance is creating a community that naturally wants to practice and play well, but isn’t so micro-managed that they lose all desire to participate.

    My point is that I see way too many stories of the ordinary being able to communicate the extraordinary greatness of God because they are humble, obedient and willing. They seek to serve God.

    When you talk about wins. It starts with clearly defining who we worship, why we worship, how we worship. If your church doesn’t have a clear view of Jesus and biblical worship, wins aren’t even worth talking about.

    The reality is, we spend a lot of time talking about what form or style we are going to present instead of drawing near to Jesus and seeking his change in our lives/hearts.

  56. Hi Devin. I appreciate your input.
    “I will take a less talented band member who has a humble heart for Jesus and is authentically worshiping Jesus over one who is extremely talented and views/holds up everyone through their gifting.”

    Is that really our only choice? Why can we not expect both? Its a matter of heart and gifting, not either or in my opinion–when it comes to any activity of serving as a leader in ministry.

    I love your point…

    “The reality is, we spend a lot of time talking about what form or style we are going to present instead of drawing near to Jesus and seeking his change in our lives/hearts.”

    That captures a lot of what this discussion is about. Ultimately changed lives are the “win”–at least it seems in this discussion the consensus would agree. Now, measuring that in some way to be sure we are doing that is important. Intentions do not make for results, right?

    1. @Devin-The heart comes first.
      Look at my three points about suggested qualifications for being on a corporate worship team.
      As Rich said, “Is that really our only choice? Why can we not expect both?”
      If a person’s heart is not in the right place, then that person needs to be prayerfully counseled and restored.
      As for skills, remember, scripture “commands” that worship is done “skillfully”.
      It’s not a suggestion. This ‘is’ an act of obedience.
      Remember the Lake Forest Parade we did and what happened without any rehearsal?
      We all had a heart for God, but the music was a disaster.
      Lack of skill (not you Devin) and preparation.
      I did an outreach shortly after that Devin, with someone you know that I won’t name publicly.
      The guy had skills and was semi-prepared, but you could sense his heart wasn’t right.
      I had a talk with him directly about it, and found it to be sad that his views about the body of Christ had become so soured by his experiences.
      This was noticeable in the worship, sadly.
      The outreach was still a success, God was ultimately glorified, but if I had it to do over again, I would have kept searching for someone else to lead.
      Ultimately, as Julliana said, at the end of the day, was God glorified?
      Did the body truly enter in and commit to worshiping him?
      That is a win, be it at church, a small home bible study, or just me and my guitar by myself.
      God bless all of you!
      Thanks Rich.

  57. Hi Devin. I appreciate your input.
    “I will take a less talented band member who has a humble heart for Jesus and is authentically worshiping Jesus over one who is extremely talented and views/holds up everyone through their gifting.”
    Is that really our only choice? Why can we not expect both? Its a matter of heart and gifting, not either or in my opinion–when it comes to any activity of serving as a leader in ministry.
    I love your point…
    “The reality is, we spend a lot of time talking about what form or style we are going to present instead of drawing near to Jesus and seeking his change in our lives/hearts.”
    That captures a lot of what this discussion is about. Ultimately changed lives are the “win”–at least it seems in this discussion the consensus would agree. Now, measuring that in some way to be sure we are doing that is important. Intentions do not make for results, right?

    1. @Devin-The heart comes first.
      Look at my three points about suggested qualifications for being on a corporate worship team.
      As Rich said, “Is that really our only choice? Why can we not expect both?”
      If a person’s heart is not in the right place, then that person needs to be prayerfully counseled and restored.
      As for skills, remember, scripture “commands” that worship is done “skillfully”.
      It’s not a suggestion. This ‘is’ an act of obedience.
      Remember the Lake Forest Parade we did and what happened without any rehearsal?
      We all had a heart for God, but the music was a disaster.
      Lack of skill (not you Devin) and preparation.
      I did an outreach shortly after that Devin, with someone you know that I won’t name publicly.
      The guy had skills and was semi-prepared, but you could sense his heart wasn’t right.
      I had a talk with him directly about it, and found it to be sad that his views about the body of Christ had become so soured by his experiences.
      This was noticeable in the worship, sadly.
      The outreach was still a success, God was ultimately glorified, but if I had it to do over again, I would have kept searching for someone else to lead.
      Ultimately, as Julliana said, at the end of the day, was God glorified?
      Did the body truly enter in and commit to worshiping him?
      That is a win, be it at church, a small home bible study, or just me and my guitar by myself.
      God bless all of you!
      Thanks Rich.

  58. Hi Devin. I appreciate your input.
    “I will take a less talented band member who has a humble heart for Jesus and is authentically worshiping Jesus over one who is extremely talented and views/holds up everyone through their gifting.”

    Is that really our only choice? Why can we not expect both? Its a matter of heart and gifting, not either or in my opinion–when it comes to any activity of serving as a leader in ministry.

    I love your point…

    “The reality is, we spend a lot of time talking about what form or style we are going to present instead of drawing near to Jesus and seeking his change in our lives/hearts.”

    That captures a lot of what this discussion is about. Ultimately changed lives are the “win”–at least it seems in this discussion the consensus would agree. Now, measuring that in some way to be sure we are doing that is important. Intentions do not make for results, right?

    1. @Devin-The heart comes first.
      Look at my three points about suggested qualifications for being on a corporate worship team.
      As Rich said, “Is that really our only choice? Why can we not expect both?”
      If a person’s heart is not in the right place, then that person needs to be prayerfully counseled and restored.
      As for skills, remember, scripture “commands” that worship is done “skillfully”.
      It’s not a suggestion. This ‘is’ an act of obedience.
      Remember the Lake Forest Parade we did and what happened without any rehearsal?
      We all had a heart for God, but the music was a disaster.
      Lack of skill (not you Devin) and preparation.
      I did an outreach shortly after that Devin, with someone you know that I won’t name publicly.
      The guy had skills and was semi-prepared, but you could sense his heart wasn’t right.
      I had a talk with him directly about it, and found it to be sad that his views about the body of Christ had become so soured by his experiences.
      This was noticeable in the worship, sadly.
      The outreach was still a success, God was ultimately glorified, but if I had it to do over again, I would have kept searching for someone else to lead.
      Ultimately, as Julliana said, at the end of the day, was God glorified?
      Did the body truly enter in and commit to worshiping him?
      That is a win, be it at church, a small home bible study, or just me and my guitar by myself.
      God bless all of you!
      Thanks Rich.

  59. Hi Devin. I appreciate your input.
    “I will take a less talented band member who has a humble heart for Jesus and is authentically worshiping Jesus over one who is extremely talented and views/holds up everyone through their gifting.”

    Is that really our only choice? Why can we not expect both? Its a matter of heart and gifting, not either or in my opinion–when it comes to any activity of serving as a leader in ministry.

    I love your point…

    “The reality is, we spend a lot of time talking about what form or style we are going to present instead of drawing near to Jesus and seeking his change in our lives/hearts.”

    That captures a lot of what this discussion is about. Ultimately changed lives are the “win”–at least it seems in this discussion the consensus would agree. Now, measuring that in some way to be sure we are doing that is important. Intentions do not make for results, right?

    1. @Devin-The heart comes first.
      Look at my three points about suggested qualifications for being on a corporate worship team.
      As Rich said, “Is that really our only choice? Why can we not expect both?”
      If a person’s heart is not in the right place, then that person needs to be prayerfully counseled and restored.
      As for skills, remember, scripture “commands” that worship is done “skillfully”.
      It’s not a suggestion. This ‘is’ an act of obedience.
      Remember the Lake Forest Parade we did and what happened without any rehearsal?
      We all had a heart for God, but the music was a disaster.
      Lack of skill (not you Devin) and preparation.
      I did an outreach shortly after that Devin, with someone you know that I won’t name publicly.
      The guy had skills and was semi-prepared, but you could sense his heart wasn’t right.
      I had a talk with him directly about it, and found it to be sad that his views about the body of Christ had become so soured by his experiences.
      This was noticeable in the worship, sadly.
      The outreach was still a success, God was ultimately glorified, but if I had it to do over again, I would have kept searching for someone else to lead.
      Ultimately, as Julliana said, at the end of the day, was God glorified?
      Did the body truly enter in and commit to worshiping him?
      That is a win, be it at church, a small home bible study, or just me and my guitar by myself.
      God bless all of you!
      Thanks Rich.

  60. Hi Devin. I appreciate your input.
    “I will take a less talented band member who has a humble heart for Jesus and is authentically worshiping Jesus over one who is extremely talented and views/holds up everyone through their gifting.”

    Is that really our only choice? Why can we not expect both? Its a matter of heart and gifting, not either or in my opinion–when it comes to any activity of serving as a leader in ministry.

    I love your point…

    “The reality is, we spend a lot of time talking about what form or style we are going to present instead of drawing near to Jesus and seeking his change in our lives/hearts.”

    That captures a lot of what this discussion is about. Ultimately changed lives are the “win”–at least it seems in this discussion the consensus would agree. Now, measuring that in some way to be sure we are doing that is important. Intentions do not make for results, right?

    1. @Devin-The heart comes first.
      Look at my three points about suggested qualifications for being on a corporate worship team.
      As Rich said, “Is that really our only choice? Why can we not expect both?”
      If a person’s heart is not in the right place, then that person needs to be prayerfully counseled and restored.
      As for skills, remember, scripture “commands” that worship is done “skillfully”.
      It’s not a suggestion. This ‘is’ an act of obedience.
      Remember the Lake Forest Parade we did and what happened without any rehearsal?
      We all had a heart for God, but the music was a disaster.
      Lack of skill (not you Devin) and preparation.
      I did an outreach shortly after that Devin, with someone you know that I won’t name publicly.
      The guy had skills and was semi-prepared, but you could sense his heart wasn’t right.
      I had a talk with him directly about it, and found it to be sad that his views about the body of Christ had become so soured by his experiences.
      This was noticeable in the worship, sadly.
      The outreach was still a success, God was ultimately glorified, but if I had it to do over again, I would have kept searching for someone else to lead.
      Ultimately, as Julliana said, at the end of the day, was God glorified?
      Did the body truly enter in and commit to worshiping him?
      That is a win, be it at church, a small home bible study, or just me and my guitar by myself.
      God bless all of you!
      Thanks Rich.

  61. Lot’s of good discussion and points here. I feel like the answers are out there, but they’re going to be varied since our God is unmeasurable, who is to say that our worship can be measured by man? There’s a tension in that we (humans) feel the need to measure, judge, critique, improve, advance, etc. I wonder if sometimes God just looks into our hearts and wishes we would love one another, and by that, the world would “know” God.
    Rich, you know me, I’m a critic. My job is to critique our worship services and help our leaders grow, challenge them to stretch, raise the bar. I’m still trying to figure out what the definable “deliverables” are. Here’s what we look at each week:

    – Participation: was the church lifting up the name of Christ together?
    – Musicality: was the music played well, did it sound good?
    – Flow: did we do our best to help people move from a worldly week to a Christ-focused environment? (lyrics on the screen, sound, keys, performance)
    – Teaching: what is Christ-honoring, gospel-centered? Were the points communicated well and timely? Was there a challenge, an encouragement, an action?
    – Presence: did our leaders invite and encourage the congregation to worship?

    Those are a few things that we try and evaluate each week. Our leaders know what we are aiming at and they are accountable – this is their job, and ultimately it is my job.

  62. Lot’s of good discussion and points here. I feel like the answers are out there, but they’re going to be varied since our God is unmeasurable, who is to say that our worship can be measured by man? There’s a tension in that we (humans) feel the need to measure, judge, critique, improve, advance, etc. I wonder if sometimes God just looks into our hearts and wishes we would love one another, and by that, the world would “know” God.
    Rich, you know me, I’m a critic. My job is to critique our worship services and help our leaders grow, challenge them to stretch, raise the bar. I’m still trying to figure out what the definable “deliverables” are. Here’s what we look at each week:
    – Participation: was the church lifting up the name of Christ together?
    – Musicality: was the music played well, did it sound good?
    – Flow: did we do our best to help people move from a worldly week to a Christ-focused environment? (lyrics on the screen, sound, keys, performance)
    – Teaching: what is Christ-honoring, gospel-centered? Were the points communicated well and timely? Was there a challenge, an encouragement, an action?
    – Presence: did our leaders invite and encourage the congregation to worship?
    Those are a few things that we try and evaluate each week. Our leaders know what we are aiming at and they are accountable – this is their job, and ultimately it is my job.

  63. Lot’s of good discussion and points here. I feel like the answers are out there, but they’re going to be varied since our God is unmeasurable, who is to say that our worship can be measured by man? There’s a tension in that we (humans) feel the need to measure, judge, critique, improve, advance, etc. I wonder if sometimes God just looks into our hearts and wishes we would love one another, and by that, the world would “know” God.
    Rich, you know me, I’m a critic. My job is to critique our worship services and help our leaders grow, challenge them to stretch, raise the bar. I’m still trying to figure out what the definable “deliverables” are. Here’s what we look at each week:

    – Participation: was the church lifting up the name of Christ together?
    – Musicality: was the music played well, did it sound good?
    – Flow: did we do our best to help people move from a worldly week to a Christ-focused environment? (lyrics on the screen, sound, keys, performance)
    – Teaching: what is Christ-honoring, gospel-centered? Were the points communicated well and timely? Was there a challenge, an encouragement, an action?
    – Presence: did our leaders invite and encourage the congregation to worship?

    Those are a few things that we try and evaluate each week. Our leaders know what we are aiming at and they are accountable – this is their job, and ultimately it is my job.

  64. Lot’s of good discussion and points here. I feel like the answers are out there, but they’re going to be varied since our God is unmeasurable, who is to say that our worship can be measured by man? There’s a tension in that we (humans) feel the need to measure, judge, critique, improve, advance, etc. I wonder if sometimes God just looks into our hearts and wishes we would love one another, and by that, the world would “know” God.
    Rich, you know me, I’m a critic. My job is to critique our worship services and help our leaders grow, challenge them to stretch, raise the bar. I’m still trying to figure out what the definable “deliverables” are. Here’s what we look at each week:

    – Participation: was the church lifting up the name of Christ together?
    – Musicality: was the music played well, did it sound good?
    – Flow: did we do our best to help people move from a worldly week to a Christ-focused environment? (lyrics on the screen, sound, keys, performance)
    – Teaching: what is Christ-honoring, gospel-centered? Were the points communicated well and timely? Was there a challenge, an encouragement, an action?
    – Presence: did our leaders invite and encourage the congregation to worship?

    Those are a few things that we try and evaluate each week. Our leaders know what we are aiming at and they are accountable – this is their job, and ultimately it is my job.

  65. Lot’s of good discussion and points here. I feel like the answers are out there, but they’re going to be varied since our God is unmeasurable, who is to say that our worship can be measured by man? There’s a tension in that we (humans) feel the need to measure, judge, critique, improve, advance, etc. I wonder if sometimes God just looks into our hearts and wishes we would love one another, and by that, the world would “know” God.
    Rich, you know me, I’m a critic. My job is to critique our worship services and help our leaders grow, challenge them to stretch, raise the bar. I’m still trying to figure out what the definable “deliverables” are. Here’s what we look at each week:

    – Participation: was the church lifting up the name of Christ together?
    – Musicality: was the music played well, did it sound good?
    – Flow: did we do our best to help people move from a worldly week to a Christ-focused environment? (lyrics on the screen, sound, keys, performance)
    – Teaching: what is Christ-honoring, gospel-centered? Were the points communicated well and timely? Was there a challenge, an encouragement, an action?
    – Presence: did our leaders invite and encourage the congregation to worship?

    Those are a few things that we try and evaluate each week. Our leaders know what we are aiming at and they are accountable – this is their job, and ultimately it is my job.

  66. “When you deal with subjective deliverables without defining the win in leading people into worship a vacuum for immaturity grows.”
    I believe that too often, the “win” is decided by whether or not people are happy with our weekend worship service. Even if the “win” isn’t stated – this is what I think drives most churches measure of success.

    So the immaturity comes from this measure. While people may say that worship is about God, at their core, they still believe that it is really about them and what they want.

    So yes, Church leaders need to take time to define what their worship offering will look like, sound like, and be like. Then the leadership needs to reinforce this idea in public and private forums and every time somebody seeks to complain about the corporate worship offering (this rarely happens) or tries to offer an opinion about what a church should or should not do.

    1. Cory, that is very very well put and the primary thought I had in presenting this. We need a platform that transcends the subjective deliverables and define the main win of people growing in Christ regardless of their preferences. Your last paragraph is brilliant. If only that would be more acceptable in church leadership circles.

  67. “When you deal with subjective deliverables without defining the win in leading people into worship a vacuum for immaturity grows.”
    I believe that too often, the “win” is decided by whether or not people are happy with our weekend worship service. Even if the “win” isn’t stated – this is what I think drives most churches measure of success.
    So the immaturity comes from this measure. While people may say that worship is about God, at their core, they still believe that it is really about them and what they want.
    So yes, Church leaders need to take time to define what their worship offering will look like, sound like, and be like. Then the leadership needs to reinforce this idea in public and private forums and every time somebody seeks to complain about the corporate worship offering (this rarely happens) or tries to offer an opinion about what a church should or should not do.

    1. Cory, that is very very well put and the primary thought I had in presenting this. We need a platform that transcends the subjective deliverables and define the main win of people growing in Christ regardless of their preferences. Your last paragraph is brilliant. If only that would be more acceptable in church leadership circles.

  68. “When you deal with subjective deliverables without defining the win in leading people into worship a vacuum for immaturity grows.”
    I believe that too often, the “win” is decided by whether or not people are happy with our weekend worship service. Even if the “win” isn’t stated – this is what I think drives most churches measure of success.

    So the immaturity comes from this measure. While people may say that worship is about God, at their core, they still believe that it is really about them and what they want.

    So yes, Church leaders need to take time to define what their worship offering will look like, sound like, and be like. Then the leadership needs to reinforce this idea in public and private forums and every time somebody seeks to complain about the corporate worship offering (this rarely happens) or tries to offer an opinion about what a church should or should not do.

    1. Cory, that is very very well put and the primary thought I had in presenting this. We need a platform that transcends the subjective deliverables and define the main win of people growing in Christ regardless of their preferences. Your last paragraph is brilliant. If only that would be more acceptable in church leadership circles.

  69. “When you deal with subjective deliverables without defining the win in leading people into worship a vacuum for immaturity grows.”
    I believe that too often, the “win” is decided by whether or not people are happy with our weekend worship service. Even if the “win” isn’t stated – this is what I think drives most churches measure of success.

    So the immaturity comes from this measure. While people may say that worship is about God, at their core, they still believe that it is really about them and what they want.

    So yes, Church leaders need to take time to define what their worship offering will look like, sound like, and be like. Then the leadership needs to reinforce this idea in public and private forums and every time somebody seeks to complain about the corporate worship offering (this rarely happens) or tries to offer an opinion about what a church should or should not do.

    1. Cory, that is very very well put and the primary thought I had in presenting this. We need a platform that transcends the subjective deliverables and define the main win of people growing in Christ regardless of their preferences. Your last paragraph is brilliant. If only that would be more acceptable in church leadership circles.

  70. “When you deal with subjective deliverables without defining the win in leading people into worship a vacuum for immaturity grows.”
    I believe that too often, the “win” is decided by whether or not people are happy with our weekend worship service. Even if the “win” isn’t stated – this is what I think drives most churches measure of success.

    So the immaturity comes from this measure. While people may say that worship is about God, at their core, they still believe that it is really about them and what they want.

    So yes, Church leaders need to take time to define what their worship offering will look like, sound like, and be like. Then the leadership needs to reinforce this idea in public and private forums and every time somebody seeks to complain about the corporate worship offering (this rarely happens) or tries to offer an opinion about what a church should or should not do.

    1. Cory, that is very very well put and the primary thought I had in presenting this. We need a platform that transcends the subjective deliverables and define the main win of people growing in Christ regardless of their preferences. Your last paragraph is brilliant. If only that would be more acceptable in church leadership circles.

  71. I think most of our “wins” here are defined by the people: were they transformed? Were they blessed? That can only be a win when the people are the measure of worship. If “transformed lives” is the umbrella point, then you can get away with a whole lot of kooky stuff in the name of “transformation.” This is where a lot get into stuff that was never prescribed or described in Scripture.
    I think we need to take our example from the Westminster Catechism: “What is the chief end of man? The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.” It is not to be transformed (that is a subordinate end) or be blessed (an even more subordinate end), but rather to glorify and accurately reflect God’s worth.

    If THIS is your umbrella, then the means matter just as much as the end. This is why in the Confessional camp, we follow the regulative principle of worship, which simply says that we do in worship only that which God has either explicitly commanded or things which we can rightly infer from the text.

    Thoughts?

  72. I think most of our “wins” here are defined by the people: were they transformed? Were they blessed? That can only be a win when the people are the measure of worship. If “transformed lives” is the umbrella point, then you can get away with a whole lot of kooky stuff in the name of “transformation.” This is where a lot get into stuff that was never prescribed or described in Scripture.
    I think we need to take our example from the Westminster Catechism: “What is the chief end of man? The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.” It is not to be transformed (that is a subordinate end) or be blessed (an even more subordinate end), but rather to glorify and accurately reflect God’s worth.
    If THIS is your umbrella, then the means matter just as much as the end. This is why in the Confessional camp, we follow the regulative principle of worship, which simply says that we do in worship only that which God has either explicitly commanded or things which we can rightly infer from the text.
    Thoughts?

  73. I think most of our “wins” here are defined by the people: were they transformed? Were they blessed? That can only be a win when the people are the measure of worship. If “transformed lives” is the umbrella point, then you can get away with a whole lot of kooky stuff in the name of “transformation.” This is where a lot get into stuff that was never prescribed or described in Scripture.
    I think we need to take our example from the Westminster Catechism: “What is the chief end of man? The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.” It is not to be transformed (that is a subordinate end) or be blessed (an even more subordinate end), but rather to glorify and accurately reflect God’s worth.

    If THIS is your umbrella, then the means matter just as much as the end. This is why in the Confessional camp, we follow the regulative principle of worship, which simply says that we do in worship only that which God has either explicitly commanded or things which we can rightly infer from the text.

    Thoughts?

  74. I think most of our “wins” here are defined by the people: were they transformed? Were they blessed? That can only be a win when the people are the measure of worship. If “transformed lives” is the umbrella point, then you can get away with a whole lot of kooky stuff in the name of “transformation.” This is where a lot get into stuff that was never prescribed or described in Scripture.
    I think we need to take our example from the Westminster Catechism: “What is the chief end of man? The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.” It is not to be transformed (that is a subordinate end) or be blessed (an even more subordinate end), but rather to glorify and accurately reflect God’s worth.

    If THIS is your umbrella, then the means matter just as much as the end. This is why in the Confessional camp, we follow the regulative principle of worship, which simply says that we do in worship only that which God has either explicitly commanded or things which we can rightly infer from the text.

    Thoughts?

  75. I think most of our “wins” here are defined by the people: were they transformed? Were they blessed? That can only be a win when the people are the measure of worship. If “transformed lives” is the umbrella point, then you can get away with a whole lot of kooky stuff in the name of “transformation.” This is where a lot get into stuff that was never prescribed or described in Scripture.
    I think we need to take our example from the Westminster Catechism: “What is the chief end of man? The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.” It is not to be transformed (that is a subordinate end) or be blessed (an even more subordinate end), but rather to glorify and accurately reflect God’s worth.

    If THIS is your umbrella, then the means matter just as much as the end. This is why in the Confessional camp, we follow the regulative principle of worship, which simply says that we do in worship only that which God has either explicitly commanded or things which we can rightly infer from the text.

    Thoughts?

  76. People are the measure as far as we are the worshippers in an activity of worship–liturgy. Check out my podcast on http://www.worshipmythbusters.com where I talk about our humanity and the incarnation as it relates to this very thing for a better angle.
    Now, worship is an end not a means. A worship service is an activity to that end a means, if you will. So, we need to evaluate our behavior in that activity and the consequences of that to be sure our end of worship is happening. It is perfectly fine to measure. But, the indicators are not the goal as you describe.

  77. People are the measure as far as we are the worshippers in an activity of worship–liturgy. Check out my podcast on http://www.worshipmythbusters.com where I talk about our humanity and the incarnation as it relates to this very thing for a better angle.
    Now, worship is an end not a means. A worship service is an activity to that end a means, if you will. So, we need to evaluate our behavior in that activity and the consequences of that to be sure our end of worship is happening. It is perfectly fine to measure. But, the indicators are not the goal as you describe.

  78. People are the measure as far as we are the worshippers in an activity of worship–liturgy. Check out my podcast on http://www.worshipmythbusters.com where I talk about our humanity and the incarnation as it relates to this very thing for a better angle.
    Now, worship is an end not a means. A worship service is an activity to that end a means, if you will. So, we need to evaluate our behavior in that activity and the consequences of that to be sure our end of worship is happening. It is perfectly fine to measure. But, the indicators are not the goal as you describe.

  79. People are the measure as far as we are the worshippers in an activity of worship–liturgy. Check out my podcast on http://www.worshipmythbusters.com where I talk about our humanity and the incarnation as it relates to this very thing for a better angle.
    Now, worship is an end not a means. A worship service is an activity to that end a means, if you will. So, we need to evaluate our behavior in that activity and the consequences of that to be sure our end of worship is happening. It is perfectly fine to measure. But, the indicators are not the goal as you describe.

  80. People are the measure as far as we are the worshippers in an activity of worship–liturgy. Check out my podcast on http://www.worshipmythbusters.com where I talk about our humanity and the incarnation as it relates to this very thing for a better angle.
    Now, worship is an end not a means. A worship service is an activity to that end a means, if you will. So, we need to evaluate our behavior in that activity and the consequences of that to be sure our end of worship is happening. It is perfectly fine to measure. But, the indicators are not the goal as you describe.

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